Neuwirth Associates Consulting founder Peter Neuwirth discusses the financial impact of Silver Divorce with analytics expert and Neuwirth Associates managing partner Jackie Chin

When it comes to Silver Divorce, the financial impact can be severe. Neuwirth Associates Consulting offers a series of services to ensure this painful process ends with the best outcome. Below, you’ll find a powerful Q&A with the firm’s founder, Peter Neuwirth, and Managing Partner Jackie Chin, MBA.

About Jackie: An analytics executive, Jackie has nearly 30 years of diverse financial services experience, including in actuarial consulting, predictive modeling, product management, and analytics. She was an executive at Charles Schwab, where she championed and delivered key initiatives to help more clients meet their financial goals. She also launched a commission-free ETF platform at Schwab, driving down the cost of ETF investing for clients. Jackie graduated from Suni Potsdam with a BA in Mathematics. Following graduation, she studied actuarial science and received an MBA from UC Berkeley. She is a National Trustee for the Boys and Girls Club of America, which you’re definitely going to have to tell us more about.

Scroll down to learn more!

Peter Neuwirth, founder, Neuwirth Associates Consulting: Thanks very much, Hope. Jackie, it’s so good to talk with you tonight. I met Jackie about 30 years ago when I had just transferred to Watson, Wyatt, from another firm on the East Coast and landed in San Francisco. Jackie was an actuarial student there. It was pretty clear that she was going on to bigger and better things. I was fortunate enough to have her there for a year or two. Then she went on to get her MBA, and we stayed in touch, but she went on to a spectacular career at Schwab. Then, happily, we reconnected just a few months ago, and she was about ready to leave Schwab. I was incredibly fortunate to persuade her to join Neuwirth Associates, and she has agreed to join us as the Managing Partner of our firm. Jackie, tell us how you got from being an actuarial student to where you are today and why I was so lucky for you to have agreed to join us.

Jackie Chin, managing partner, Neuwirth Associates Consulting: Happy to, Pete, and thrilled to be here today and to have the opportunity to work with you again. As you said, it was about 30 years ago that we worked together in consulting. Since then, I received my MBA. The shift was moving from helping companies to helping individuals. Along that journey, I got my MBA, which opened many doors. The biggest door and where I spent the majority of my career was at Charles Schwab. I picked Charles Schwab because it was the opportunity to help individual investors, help them be financially fit, help them with low-cost investing, and help them reach their financial dreams and goals. At Schwab, I launched the ETF OneSource platform, which democratized investing for many, many clients in a free way of investing in ETFs and made it easier for them to do that. So, really, it’s been a great journey for me personally. But as I look back at my career and the leaders who stood out and helped influence and shape my journey, I have to say you certainly stand out, Pete. I learned a lot from you at the consulting firm that we worked at together, and I really was lucky to have you as a leader. I’m excited for this opportunity to work with you again.

Pete: It seems like you were very early on to this notion of empowering individuals and helping them manage their financial lives through whatever the contingencies that arise. I spent my career helping companies and plan sponsors. I remember my first job in the consulting world; they said, Never, ever, ever talk to a plan participant. You work for the plan participants. As actuaries, we are hired to protect the interests of plan participants, but we don’t deal with them. But you have been dealing with Plan participants and individual investors all your career. After I retired from Towers Watson, I started getting interested in that notion and trying to be of service and empower people in their financial lives. It seems pretty synergistic for us to be working together with that same goal in mind. Tell me more about empowering people, how you’ve done that, and how you see what’s important about empowering people to be self-sufficient and manage their lives and their finances.

Jackie: I’ll start with where it came from within me and why I’m so passionate about it. As I look back at my own upbringing and childhood and the means that I came from. I was actually pretty untraditional regarding how I got to where I am. I was out on my own at the age of 16, which, as you can imagine, is quite difficult.

Pete: You didn’t finish high school?

Jackie: No, I did not. It was just a circumstance where my parents moved out of the district, and I could no longer attend that school. And the last thing I wanted to do after 11 years of being in the same school district was to start over. And so I moved out. I got my own apartment. I had a full-time job working in a grocery store, making minimum wage. As you can imagine, it is not an easy way to get by. I did get my GED, but I wasn’t able to until my class graduated. And so I circumvented that and just went right to college. So I started college when I was 17 and then got my GED to get financial aid and matriculation and all that good stuff. But long story short, I struggled since I was 16, supporting myself and through college, and I really felt like I didn’t want this. I want life to be better for myself, and I’m willing to work hard and be disciplined. And that’s when I knew that I needed financial independence. And so I set out with that goal. A funny story: I was a math major in college, and I remember thinking that, going into it, I could only be a math teacher. So I went to the Career Center at college and asked what the best job that I could get as a math major was that would make the most money with the least amount of stress. And guess what? An actuary. That’s how I landed a job working with you.

Pete: Actually, when I got out of college, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Like you, I went to the Career Services Department. There was this job that would pay you to take and pass math tests. I wasn’t good at much, but I was pretty good at taking math tests. It sounds like you developed many other real-life skills, including managing your financial life — and that is part of what you’ve been trying to pass on to others.

Jackie: Exactly. It’s not easy, but I think it’s really, really important. Financial independence is what I want to help bring to others. It allows you to control the things that are most important to you in your life. That’s different for everyone. But we all need money to do the things we want to do. When we think about the importance of it, and really, it’s about not counting or depending on anyone else. So, know that no matter what life throws out on you, you’re going to be okay, and you’re going to be able to get through it. And so I know, as we think about silver divorce and marriage, and I’ve been happily married for over 20 years now. Certainly, financial independence isn’t necessarily something that is at the top of my mind because all of your assets are commingled. But it’s still important for individuals to be aware of their finances and how things change. When they do, it’s important that you have options and can maintain them.

Pete: Towards the end of my time at Schwab, I started thinking about how my generation, as well as the generation right behind and right ahead, will retire and live on their assets. I didn’t see anybody saying that such a plan is good if you have a steady income and budgeted expenses, but as we all know, things happen. One of the reasons I am so excited to work at Neuwirth Associates is to help individuals deal with those unexpected things that come up. Divorce is one of the biggest contingencies that can wreck your financial plan. A major focus of Neuwirth Associates is helping people manage this psychologically traumatic event that can have financially devastating effects.

Jackie: I think there are many challenges with it. Often, it’s just one individual making all the financial decisions, which means both parties don’t know what all the assets are. There’s a lot of complexity in those assets, which makes it so difficult to split. As I look back at my life, many unexpected things came along the way. The key is being prepared and smart about your decisions.

Pete: Right. How do you prepare for contingencies? As an actuary, we know that with insurance, you can insure against certain risks, and you can prepare for certain risks. You can build some redundancies into your financial plan. But divorce is really a different animal. You’ve got one financial house between you and your spouse, and you get divorced, and that house has to be demoed and turned into two houses. Anybody who’s built a house knows it’s very complicated, and a financial house is even more complicated to take apart and put together. That’s where I think the fact is that there’s a lack of actuarial expertise being brought to bear on that problem. I’m assuming that’s part of why you were attracted to joining Neuwirth Associates Consulting.

Jackie: Exactly. Similar to you, I went down the path of taking the actual exams. While I’m not fully credentialed like you are, I got about halfway through. And so I know the extreme rigor that goes with that. As a result, it brings about great expertise in being able to look at things objectively, apply critical thinking, solve critical problems in terms of understanding how to interpret the assets, and do it in a way that’s unbiased and fair. And so when I think about individuals going through a divorce and really wanting to be able to equitably split assets and thinking about when you don’t have good data and you don’t have all the information that you would need to do that, I think it’s exactly that, the actuarial discipline that comes into play and helps make better recommendations and decisions for individuals and leaves, quite frankly, more money on the table, which contributes to financial independence and helps individuals with maintaining those assets that they work so hard for.

Pete: That’s absolutely true. Actuaries have particular domain expertise in the assets that couples accumulate during a marriage. We bring that expertise to bear—expertise in qualified retirement plans, insurance, and fiduciary obligations. Having spent many years at Schwab, however, you must be acutely aware of all of the fiduciary obligations that plan sponsors, banks, and others have when it comes to divorce.

Jackie: That’s exactly right. In my experience, that is when fiduciary responsibility comes into play. Individuals are responsible for the advice that they give; I think it brings it to a whole other level in terms of accountability. That raises the bar in terms of ensuring that you’re bringing in individuals who have the experience and expertise to support those recommendations. And what I have heard in talking with family lawyers and mediators is that’s not always the case. I think it’s easy to say you’ve got the expertise because you’ve run a spreadsheet or you can do that calculation. But I think it’s important to really look under the hood and understand what it is that you’re getting, who is the person or the firm that you’re working with, and is qualified to ensure a clear understanding of those assets, especially when it comes to taxes when it comes to QDROs or retirement plans which get complex. I think life insurance, annuities, and everything you mentioned on the surface are easy to divide by two, but that will not always get you the best outcome.

Pete: Right. Think about a life insurance policy, for example. It’s got a cash value, it’s got a death benefit, and maybe it’s got a loan outstanding. How do you divide that? I mean, Particularly when one spouse may not have an insurable interest in another. So that’s what I think you need an actuary to really dig into. The other part where you need an actuary is when it comes to QDROs because there are a lot of people out there who say they can draft a QDRO or know how QDROs work. But QDROs really come from another section of the code. I mean, everybody’s heard of 401(k), but very few people have heard of 414(p). And 414(p) is just as much a part of ERISA and just as important as 401(k). And 414(p) is the section of the code that drives what you can and can’t do when it comes to splitting up not just a defined benefit pension but also a 401k plan. I believe Neuwirth Associates is one of the leading firms in this area simply because there aren’t a lot of actuaries working on the family law side. And there are plenty of actuaries who work for Plan administrators and sponsors, as well as participants who are getting divorced. But I think there’s a real lack of actuarial expertise being brought to bear from the perspective of the divorcing couple. Again, with your expertise and experience, Jackie, I mean, you know these people. You’ve helped them invest their money. You’ve probably helped them build that marital house that needs to be renovated.

Jackie: Yes. Speaking of houses, I want to share a real-life example of a good friend of mine right now who’s going through a divorce. In addition to all the complex assets that you talk about, there’s the home, the family home that the kids were raised in, which one of the spouses wants to stay in. Well, guess what? They bought that house at a 3% interest rate. In order for them to buy out the other spouse, the traditional way would be to refinance it. But who wants to do that at 7%? And so I think bringing the actuarial discipline to the complex assets gives you more options for dealing with other assets like real estate.

Pete: Not only that, but you’ve now alluded to our third partner who’s not here, Barry Sacks, who’s been on my show more than once. And he’s an expert in reverse mortgages, a very, very complicated asset class with a reputation that is inconsistent with reality. They have a bad reputation, but I think reverse mortgages are an incredibly useful tool, particularly when it comes to divorce, because they are a way to access home equity and find a way to divide and utilize it for both purposes. Have you worked in the real estate with real estate with your clients at all? Where do you see that going from a divorce perspective?

Jackie: I think real estate, real assets, is increasingly part of anyone’s investment portfolio. And so, I think because of that, it only increases the need for how to take the family home, the Tahoe house, the Beach house, whatever other real estate that you’ve acquired. It increases the need for those services because more individuals and couples invest in real estate.

Pete: That’s right. Fundamentally, much of what actuaries do in the area of retirement income planning and divorce facilitation is cash flow matching. It’s basically looking at the cash that your assets and your job or whatever other sources of income, the income stream that you’re getting, the assets that you can liquefy or use to generate income, compared to the expenses, to your liabilities. And those liabilities bifurcate when you get divorced. Now you’ve got two streams of liabilities, two spouses that have to have cash flow that is accommodated. And so, finding ways to match and reorganize your positive cash flow to meet the negative cash flow and the variable, the uncertainties in that negative cash flow, is a challenge, and I would argue, is an actuarial challenge itself.

Jackie: I totally agree. The fresh perspective that Neuwirth Associates brings to this problem is something that I think people need to take notice of. I also think what we see in the industry only increases the need for that new approach. We know the rate of divorce is increasing, particularly with those over 55. I think what we’ve seen is that it’s doubled since 1990. And then, for couples over 65, the rate of divorce has tripled. So, there is an increasing need for silver divorce support. While we know people are living longer, it doesn’t account for all of it. But I also think when we look at the markets, there’s just more uncertainty. If you look at the stock market over the last 20 years, if you look at interest rates over the last 20 years, real estate, and the looming threats of Social Security out there, With so much uncertainty in the markets, an actuarial discipline is focused on taking in all of that information and bringing forth a solution that will protect the individual spouses and keep the pie as big as possible.

Pete: As we said at the outset, you are the managing partner of this organization. How do you see Neuwirth Associates helping divorcing couples and their advisors moving forward?

Jackie: I think the opportunity is tremendous. I think, as we mentioned earlier, there are folks out there that are doing this today. They’re not qualified. There are unqualified professionals today who are helping divorcees split their assets, which could result in an increase in fees, a reduction in the “pie” that gets split, and undesirable tax consequences from it. And so I think first and foremost is just getting out there and getting the word out. Educating the family and lawyers requires us to get in front of moderators and showcase a new and better way of approaching this. From conversations I’ve had, it sounds like they’re hungry for a new approach. I’ve talked to folks who have had issues with individuals who were maybe less qualified to split the asset. So I think getting out there and raising awareness education and then digging in and helping some clients.

Pete: I agree completely. I also think, as we have more and more conversations, what I’m also finding is that there are also people who don’t know their rights when it comes to insurance policies or under a qualified retirement plan. ERISA and a lot of these state insurance commissions provide some strong protections for both spouses, actually, but spouses as a couple and spouses as individuals. Knowing your rights and being an advocate for those rights are also roles that Neuwirth Associates can play because everybody should get what they’re entitled to. If there is a mission that we have, it’s to make sure that happens.

Jackie: Absolutely. I spent my career at Charles Schwab, and the motto, which has been unchanged for many years, is “Own your tomorrow.” How do we empower individuals going through a divorce, educate them, and help them bring in the right people to minimize fees and support an equitable distribution between the two divorcing spouses?

Pete: Well, that’s fantastic. Do you have any final words to leave our audience?

Jackie: I would first say I’m just delighted to be working with you again and excited to be here on this podcast. Regarding our services, we will be at the table with both divorcing spouses and really help with an amicable solution that we can come to together. If that’s not the case, we can certainly help by being an advocate. I do think we can support individuals going through this difficult time. We can support individuals in terms of not only the split assets but also help them think about what they’re going to do going forward and how to help them take control of their finances and help them ultimately be financially independent and go on to live a long, happy life with the assets to support what they want to do.

Pete: Great. Thanks so much for joining us tonight. We look forward to so much more!

Jackie: Thanks, and see you soon, Pete.

Hope: Thank you both. Neuwirth Associates Consulting is a fascinating, growing company. You can find us on the web at www.NeuwirthAssociates.Consulting. All of the podcasts are there, and you can link to them from the homepage. Thank you  Pete and Jackie. Dear audience, you are watching the Silver Divorce Show. I’m the proud producer, Hope Katz Gibbs, on the Inkandescent Radio Network and Inkandescent.TV. Stay tuned for much, much more. We’ll talk with you all soon!

Peter Neuwirth, founder, Neuwirth Associates Consulting: Thanks very much, Hope. Jackie, it’s so good to talk with you tonight. I met Jackie about 30 years ago when I had just transferred to Watson, Wyatt, from another firm on the East Coast and landed in San Francisco. Jackie was an actuarial student there. It was pretty clear that she was going on to bigger and better things. I was fortunate enough to have her there for a year or two. Then she went on to get her MBA, and we stayed in touch, but she went on to a spectacular career at Schwab. Then, happily, we reconnected just a few months ago, and she was about ready to leave Schwab. I was incredibly fortunate to persuade her to join Neuwirth Associates, and she has agreed to join us as the Managing Partner of our firm. Jackie, tell us how you got from being an actuarial student to where you are today and why I was so lucky for you to have agreed to join us.

Jackie Chin, managing partner, Neuwirth Associates Consulting: Happy to, Pete, and thrilled to be here today and to have the opportunity to work with you again. As you said, it was about 30 years ago that we worked together in consulting. Since then, I received my MBA. The shift was moving from helping companies to helping individuals. Along that journey, I got my MBA, which opened many doors. The biggest door and where I spent the majority of my career was at Charles Schwab. I picked Charles Schwab because it was the opportunity to help individual investors, help them be financially fit, help them with low-cost investing, and help them reach their financial dreams and goals. At Schwab, I launched the ETF OneSource platform, which democratized investing for many, many clients in a free way of investing in ETFs and made it easier for them to do that. So, really, it’s been a great journey for me personally. But as I look back at my career and the leaders who stood out and helped influence and shape my journey, I have to say you certainly stand out, Pete. I learned a lot from you at the consulting firm that we worked at together, and I really was lucky to have you as a leader. I’m excited for this opportunity to work with you again.

Pete: It seems like you were very early on to this notion of empowering individuals and helping them manage their financial lives through whatever the contingencies that arise. I spent my career helping companies and plan sponsors. I remember my first job in the consulting world; they said, Never, ever, ever talk to a plan participant. You work for the plan participants. As actuaries, we are hired to protect the interests of plan participants, but we don’t deal with them. But you have been dealing with Plan participants and individual investors all your career. After I retired from Towers Watson, I started getting interested in that notion and trying to be of service and empower people in their financial lives. It seems pretty synergistic for us to be working together with that same goal in mind. Tell me more about empowering people, how you’ve done that, and how you see what’s important about empowering people to be self-sufficient and manage their lives and their finances.

Jackie: I’ll start with where it came from within me and why I’m so passionate about it. As I look back at my own upbringing and childhood and the means that I came from. I was actually pretty untraditional regarding how I got to where I am. I was out on my own at the age of 16, which, as you can imagine, is quite difficult.

Pete: You didn’t finish high school?

Jackie: No, I did not. It was just a circumstance where my parents moved out of the district, and I could no longer attend that school. And the last thing I wanted to do after 11 years of being in the same school district was to start over. And so I moved out. I got my own apartment. I had a full-time job working in a grocery store, making minimum wage. As you can imagine, it is not an easy way to get by. I did get my GED, but I wasn’t able to until my class graduated. And so I circumvented that and just went right to college. So I started college when I was 17 and then got my GED to get financial aid and matriculation and all that good stuff. But long story short, I struggled since I was 16, supporting myself and through college, and I really felt like I didn’t want this. I want life to be better for myself, and I’m willing to work hard and be disciplined. And that’s when I knew that I needed financial independence. And so I set out with that goal. A funny story: I was a math major in college, and I remember thinking that, going into it, I could only be a math teacher. So I went to the Career Center at college and asked what the best job that I could get as a math major was that would make the most money with the least amount of stress. And guess what? An actuary. That’s how I landed a job working with you.

Pete: Actually, when I got out of college, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Like you, I went to the Career Services Department. There was this job that would pay you to take and pass math tests. I wasn’t good at much, but I was pretty good at taking math tests. It sounds like you developed many other real-life skills, including managing your financial life — and that is part of what you’ve been trying to pass on to others.

Jackie: Exactly. It’s not easy, but I think it’s really, really important. Financial independence is what I want to help bring to others. It allows you to control the things that are most important to you in your life. That’s different for everyone. But we all need money to do the things we want to do. When we think about the importance of it, and really, it’s about not counting or depending on anyone else. So, know that no matter what life throws out on you, you’re going to be okay, and you’re going to be able to get through it. And so I know, as we think about silver divorce and marriage, and I’ve been happily married for over 20 years now. Certainly, financial independence isn’t necessarily something that is at the top of my mind because all of your assets are commingled. But it’s still important for individuals to be aware of their finances and how things change. When they do, it’s important that you have options and can maintain them.

Pete: Towards the end of my time at Schwab, I started thinking about how my generation, as well as the generation right behind and right ahead, will retire and live on their assets. I didn’t see anybody saying that such a plan is good if you have a steady income and budgeted expenses, but as we all know, things happen. One of the reasons I am so excited to work at Neuwirth Associates is to help individuals deal with those unexpected things that come up. Divorce is one of the biggest contingencies that can wreck your financial plan. A major focus of Neuwirth Associates is helping people manage this psychologically traumatic event that can have financially devastating effects.

Jackie: I think there are many challenges with it. Often, it’s just one individual making all the financial decisions, which means both parties don’t know what all the assets are. There’s a lot of complexity in those assets, which makes it so difficult to split. As I look back at my life, many unexpected things came along the way. The key is being prepared and smart about your decisions.

Pete: Right. How do you prepare for contingencies? As an actuary, we know that with insurance, you can insure against certain risks, and you can prepare for certain risks. You can build some redundancies into your financial plan. But divorce is really a different animal. You’ve got one financial house between you and your spouse, and you get divorced, and that house has to be demoed and turned into two houses. Anybody who’s built a house knows it’s very complicated, and a financial house is even more complicated to take apart and put together. That’s where I think the fact is that there’s a lack of actuarial expertise being brought to bear on that problem. I’m assuming that’s part of why you were attracted to joining Neuwirth Associates Consulting.

Jackie: Exactly. Similar to you, I went down the path of taking the actual exams. While I’m not fully credentialed like you are, I got about halfway through. And so I know the extreme rigor that goes with that. As a result, it brings about great expertise in being able to look at things objectively, apply critical thinking, solve critical problems in terms of understanding how to interpret the assets, and do it in a way that’s unbiased and fair. And so when I think about individuals going through a divorce and really wanting to be able to equitably split assets and thinking about when you don’t have good data and you don’t have all the information that you would need to do that, I think it’s exactly that, the actuarial discipline that comes into play and helps make better recommendations and decisions for individuals and leaves, quite frankly, more money on the table, which contributes to financial independence and helps individuals with maintaining those assets that they work so hard for.

Pete: That’s absolutely true. Actuaries have particular domain expertise in the assets that couples accumulate during a marriage. We bring that expertise to bear—expertise in qualified retirement plans, insurance, and fiduciary obligations. Having spent many years at Schwab, however, you must be acutely aware of all of the fiduciary obligations that plan sponsors, banks, and others have when it comes to divorce.

Jackie: That’s exactly right. In my experience, that is when fiduciary responsibility comes into play. Individuals are responsible for the advice that they give; I think it brings it to a whole other level in terms of accountability. That raises the bar in terms of ensuring that you’re bringing in individuals who have the experience and expertise to support those recommendations. And what I have heard in talking with family lawyers and mediators is that’s not always the case. I think it’s easy to say you’ve got the expertise because you’ve run a spreadsheet or you can do that calculation. But I think it’s important to really look under the hood and understand what it is that you’re getting, who is the person or the firm that you’re working with, and is qualified to ensure a clear understanding of those assets, especially when it comes to taxes when it comes to QDROs or retirement plans which get complex. I think life insurance, annuities, and everything you mentioned on the surface are easy to divide by two, but that will not always get you the best outcome.

Pete: Right. Think about a life insurance policy, for example. It’s got a cash value, it’s got a death benefit, and maybe it’s got a loan outstanding. How do you divide that? I mean, Particularly when one spouse may not have an insurable interest in another. So that’s what I think you need an actuary to really dig into. The other part where you need an actuary is when it comes to QDROs because there are a lot of people out there who say they can draft a QDRO or know how QDROs work. But QDROs really come from another section of the code. I mean, everybody’s heard of 401(k), but very few people have heard of 414(p). And 414(p) is just as much a part of ERISA and just as important as 401(k). And 414(p) is the section of the code that drives what you can and can’t do when it comes to splitting up not just a defined benefit pension but also a 401k plan. I believe Neuwirth Associates is one of the leading firms in this area simply because there aren’t a lot of actuaries working on the family law side. And there are plenty of actuaries who work for Plan administrators and sponsors, as well as participants who are getting divorced. But I think there’s a real lack of actuarial expertise being brought to bear from the perspective of the divorcing couple. Again, with your expertise and experience, Jackie, I mean, you know these people. You’ve helped them invest their money. You’ve probably helped them build that marital house that needs to be renovated.

Jackie: Yes. Speaking of houses, I want to share a real-life example of a good friend of mine right now who’s going through a divorce. In addition to all the complex assets that you talk about, there’s the home, the family home that the kids were raised in, which one of the spouses wants to stay in. Well, guess what? They bought that house at a 3% interest rate. In order for them to buy out the other spouse, the traditional way would be to refinance it. But who wants to do that at 7%? And so I think bringing the actuarial discipline to the complex assets gives you more options for dealing with other assets like real estate.

Pete: Not only that, but you’ve now alluded to our third partner who’s not here, Barry Sacks, who’s been on my show more than once. And he’s an expert in reverse mortgages, a very, very complicated asset class with a reputation that is inconsistent with reality. They have a bad reputation, but I think reverse mortgages are an incredibly useful tool, particularly when it comes to divorce, because they are a way to access home equity and find a way to divide and utilize it for both purposes. Have you worked in the real estate with real estate with your clients at all? Where do you see that going from a divorce perspective?

Jackie: I think real estate, real assets, is increasingly part of anyone’s investment portfolio. And so, I think because of that, it only increases the need for how to take the family home, the Tahoe house, the Beach house, whatever other real estate that you’ve acquired. It increases the need for those services because more individuals and couples invest in real estate.

Pete: That’s right. Fundamentally, much of what actuaries do in the area of retirement income planning and divorce facilitation is cash flow matching. It’s basically looking at the cash that your assets and your job or whatever other sources of income, the income stream that you’re getting, the assets that you can liquefy or use to generate income, compared to the expenses, to your liabilities. And those liabilities bifurcate when you get divorced. Now you’ve got two streams of liabilities, two spouses that have to have cash flow that is accommodated. And so, finding ways to match and reorganize your positive cash flow to meet the negative cash flow and the variable, the uncertainties in that negative cash flow, is a challenge, and I would argue, is an actuarial challenge itself.

Jackie: I totally agree. The fresh perspective that Neuwirth Associates brings to this problem is something that I think people need to take notice of. I also think what we see in the industry only increases the need for that new approach. We know the rate of divorce is increasing, particularly with those over 55. I think what we’ve seen is that it’s doubled since 1990. And then, for couples over 65, the rate of divorce has tripled. So, there is an increasing need for silver divorce support. While we know people are living longer, it doesn’t account for all of it. But I also think when we look at the markets, there’s just more uncertainty. If you look at the stock market over the last 20 years, if you look at interest rates over the last 20 years, real estate, and the looming threats of Social Security out there, With so much uncertainty in the markets, an actuarial discipline is focused on taking in all of that information and bringing forth a solution that will protect the individual spouses and keep the pie as big as possible.

Pete: As we said at the outset, you are the managing partner of this organization. How do you see Neuwirth Associates helping divorcing couples and their advisors moving forward?

Jackie: I think the opportunity is tremendous. I think, as we mentioned earlier, there are folks out there that are doing this today. They’re not qualified. There are unqualified professionals today who are helping divorcees split their assets, which could result in an increase in fees, a reduction in the “pie” that gets split, and undesirable tax consequences from it. And so I think first and foremost is just getting out there and getting the word out. Educating the family and lawyers requires us to get in front of moderators and showcase a new and better way of approaching this. From conversations I’ve had, it sounds like they’re hungry for a new approach. I’ve talked to folks who have had issues with individuals who were maybe less qualified to split the asset. So I think getting out there and raising awareness education and then digging in and helping some clients.

Pete: I agree completely. I also think, as we have more and more conversations, what I’m also finding is that there are also people who don’t know their rights when it comes to insurance policies or under a qualified retirement plan. ERISA and a lot of these state insurance commissions provide some strong protections for both spouses, actually, but spouses as a couple and spouses as individuals. Knowing your rights and being an advocate for those rights are also roles that Neuwirth Associates can play because everybody should get what they’re entitled to. If there is a mission that we have, it’s to make sure that happens.

Jackie: Absolutely. I spent my career at Charles Schwab, and the motto, which has been unchanged for many years, is “Own your tomorrow.” How do we empower individuals going through a divorce, educate them, and help them bring in the right people to minimize fees and support an equitable distribution between the two divorcing spouses?

Pete: Well, that’s fantastic. Do you have any final words to leave our audience?

Jackie: I would first say I’m just delighted to be working with you again and excited to be here on this podcast. Regarding our services, we will be at the table with both divorcing spouses and really help with an amicable solution that we can come to together. If that’s not the case, we can certainly help by being an advocate. I do think we can support individuals going through this difficult time. We can support individuals in terms of not only the split assets but also help them think about what they’re going to do going forward and how to help them take control of their finances and help them ultimately be financially independent and go on to live a long, happy life with the assets to support what they want to do.

Pete: Great. Thanks so much for joining us tonight. We look forward to so much more!

Jackie: Thanks, and see you soon, Pete.

Hope: Thank you both. Neuwirth Associates Consulting is a fascinating, growing company. You can find us on the web at www.NeuwirthAssociates.Consulting. All of the podcasts are there, and you can link to them from the homepage. Thank you  Pete and Jackie. Dear audience, you are watching the Silver Divorce Show. I’m the proud producer, Hope Katz Gibbs, on the Inkandescent Radio Network and Inkandescent.TV. Stay tuned for much, much more. We’ll talk with you all soon!